DSCN2558 Bishop Jacob Afolabi

On a rather cold and frosty Tuesday morning of 7 January, Black Ottawa Scene arrived at the office of  Bishop Jacob Afolabi, situated on a quiet commercial hub on St. Laurent Blvd. As usual, this humble but highly respected man of God quickly dissipated our reporter’s chilled body with his warm smile and wholesome welcome. The Senior Pastor of the Christ’s Chapel Bible Church patiently answered our questions with an inspirational insight into the many issues facing our community.

As you know, you are one of the most important players in Ottawa’s black community and we want to get your perspective on a number of issues. First off where were you born and when did you come to Canada?

As far as me being one of the most significant personalities in Ottawa, I’ll take that with humility.  I was born in Ghana to Nigerian parents. When I was very young I was taken to Nigeria to be educated. When I finished primary school, I went back to Ghana, I couldn’t go to secondary school at that time so in 1955, I went to work in the gold mines in Bibiani, as a young man of 16. It was one white man, Mr. Bolton who saw me and said to me: “You look like an educated man. Let me test you”. So he tested me in Arithmetic and some basic English, and said: “You should not be in the mines, you should be in school”. He was furious that I was employed as a mine labourer but I couldn’t get anything else to do. So I submitted myself to Mr. Bolton’s guidance and he told the general manager of the mines that he must send this boy to school. So they sent me to school in Tarkwa in 1956. In 1957 I was taken to another school in Takoradi Secondary Technical where I studied electrical engineering. The mines were paying me while I was in school and were paying for my education as well. That was the only kind of secondary education I got. But the mines is a very terrible place to work in, death every day. In 1959 I had to go to Nigeria because I had several accidents in the mines . In Nigeria, I got a job at WNTV/WNBS, in those days the Western Nigerian television. I was in Nigeria in December 1959 at the time of the election prior to independence in 1960. I was employed in February 1960 as an apprentice technician. There I started studying electronics at a technical college in Ibadan, I did that for about 4 years and I was still in broadcasting. I was able to get the Intermediate certificate in  electronic engineering. With that I was able to get a job in Zambia in 1968 as a technician. I was still studying until I became an electronic engineer. I worked in Kaunda’s office. When Kaunda came here recently I went to see him. Of course he did not remember me as he had a lot of people working for him. That has been my foundation. I continued working here until 1974 when I came back home to Nigeria to start a business again.

What kind of business did you start?

Electronics business called Nucleus Electronics Ltd. Being an electronics engineer, I never really worked as an engineer; I only worked as a technician and I wanted to start an electronics business. Embassies in Lagos were looking for businesses to go to their country to do some electronic shopping. So the South Korean ambassador in Lagos got in touch with some Nigerians through some electronics institutions. I was one of those who were chosen to go to Korea in 1978. I was supposed to go to Korea to sign an agreement to have a factory in Lagos, all they wanted from me was the land; they would bring the equipment to Lagos from South Korea. Daewoo Electronics was a big company; they were ship-builders also. The night I was going to fly from Lagos to Paris, and from Paris to South Korea. That night I over slept and missed my flight. I was furious as I couldn’t go. I missed becoming a millionaire so to speak. But I did not know I missed something greater than that. The following day on the BBC, I heard that the plane I was to take from Paris to South Korea had been shot down by the Russian air force.

I remember that incident.

I was to be in that plane.

God was guiding you?

I thank God I escaped because no-one else could make it happen. Because why did I oversleep?  Having my ticket in my hand to travel to South Korea and then oversleeping after I had slept overnight. In the daytime, at 10 a.m.,  I said let me lie down and take about two hours sleep and then go to the airport. It’s a terrible thing to go from Lagos to the airport at Ikeja; the traffic was so much. I wanted to sleep for about two hours and then I slept till 7 p.m.  That’s how I missed my flight which was at 5 p.m. All my colleagues who went died! That’s how God saved my life. It was then I was compelled to think again about the kind of life I was living and how I was going to stay alive and be a benefit to my family and my country. I was one of those who are so much in the forefront of arguing about the direction of Nigeria, knowing very well that Nigeria has a potential for greatness. I was one of those who was arguing for how we can make things better. Then I decided to go to Bible school, because at that time my electronics business was going bad. I could see the hand of God that business was not going good, I was owing the bank a lot of money and I am somebody who doesn’t like to owe any money to anybody. I had a very terrible mind, confusion in my mind, so I decided to go to bible school on Saturdays. That was when I was saved.

So bible school was just a way to fill your time?

Yes and it was in the bible school that I decided to leave all my other ventures, my electronics business, pursuit of money everything, and then to focus on serving God. My father led us as children in the ways of God as a Baptist man but I left until this thing happened and then I returned.  By 1981 I entered bible school, not full time but weekends. And it took me about 6 years to go from the rudiments of studying the bible until I got a diploma.  Then I got a degree and then a Master’s degree, you can see the certificate there on my wall.

Was this in Lagos?

Yes it was in Lagos. When I did not know what to do, business was not going well. I wasn’t a pastor, I had gone to bible school, what was I going to do with it? As if my life was in a flux. Then I slept and I had a dream. I usually don’t dream and when I do, I don’t usually remember the dream. I had this dream that two soldiers in army uniform came and arrested me and what have I done? They took me to a boxing ring, one pointing a gun at my head, the other pointing his gun on the other side of my head. And one was saying: “Preach or you’re dead! ” Then I woke up!

My goodness, that was profound!

Then I woke up and I did not examine myself to find out the meaning of this. I’ve been reading the bible, I got a Masters degree in bible studies. “Preach or you’re dead!” Then I said “OK, God, you’re the one who sent me this dream; show me where you want me to preach? In Nigeria?” I did not even believe in God.

That’s interesting, and now you’re a bishop. So what happened after that?

It was before that I said to my father: “These white men who brought you the bible, they’re cheating you, there is nothing like God”.  And my father said: “Jacob, you just go back to your school, and I’ll be praying for you.” So when I had this dream and I was not a pastor, what am I going to preach? I started teaching at the bible college in Otta. But that teaching had no money. And I had another dream, as a matter of fact this was not a dream. Before I went to bed, I knelt down and asked God; “Throughout the past years of my life I’ve been living for myself; now I am 46 and I want to spend the rest of my years with you. Send me anywhere you like in this world and I’ll go for you. Forget my  business, forget my engineering degree, forget everything, forget my theology but send me anywhere, you want me to go for you.” Then I slept and had a dream and woke up and said: “Canada.”

Canada happened just like that?

I spoke out “Canada”.  My wife asked what’s wrong and I said we’re going to Canada. “Going to Canada? OK tell me in the morning. Go back to bed.”  In the morning I called my family together and told them we’re going to Canada. That was in 1989.

How many children did you have by that time?

I had four children. They couldn’t understand me. Going to Canada, what are you going to do in Canada? I don’t know what we’re going to do but we’re going to Canada. Then I tried to go to Canada. But I couldn’t make it. I wrote to many churches there and told them I was qualified in this and that. I wrote to somebody in Mississauga. At that time that name sounded very colourful, that’s why I chose it. They said they could not sponsor me, but I can come and visit and see what I can do and see what they can put me in a place where I can be helping some pastor. And I didn’t hear from them again. Then I went to God and I said: “For the past 2 years I’ve been trying to go to Canada on my own, and I couldn’t make it. Now if you want me to go, it’s up to you. If it’s true that you revealed this to me in my dreams, then you have to send me to Canada. I am not going to try again.’’

You said that to God? And did he say?

(Laughs). Of course he wouldn’t say anything. I didn’t know that’s what God was waiting for. That I don’t try to do anything on my own. Then six months later, the principal of my school in Otta got a letter from St. Paul’s University, Ottawa. They wanted somebody to be trained as an evangelist; this must be someone who has a past in broadcasting.

Isn’t that amazing?

(Laughs). Who has a past in broadcasting! So they can train them in evangelism for Africa. When my principal received that letter, he brought it to me and said: “Brother Afolabi, this letter is for you. My name is not there. You told me God has asked you to go to Canada, this is from Canada. I don’t know how they know our name, how they were able to contact us, our address.”  I took the letter and applied for and they agreed for me to come and study. So that I would enter in January 1990. But it was to be a course of one year in Christian evangelism, and it was going to be fee paying course, I didn’t have a penny but I did not know that. When I got a letter from them, there was a yellow sheet attached  which I believed was a letter saying I had been given a scholarship worth $15,000. Then I took the letter of admission to the Canadian High Commission in Lagos, and the embassy people said: “Oh yes you’ve got a scholarship”. That’ s what I thought. So they took my passport and gave me a visa to travel. Then I was looking for money to travel I didn’t have anything. Then I had some help. God really worked hard for me on this issue, I was able to get some money sufficient for the trip the ticket to travel to Canada. I said I only have money for a one way ticket, the embassy people said, well you have a scholarship, it doesn’t matter, and you go.

They were very understanding.

Yes. It was not a scholarship I had; it was a demand note for tuition fees!

And the embassy also misunderstood it?

Yes they did.(Laughs). When I got to Canada on 28 January, I was 3 weeks late for classes. I went to St Paul’s University Seminary, there was a seminary then, it’s no longer there.  I said: “I am from Africa and I am not a Catholic, I am an evangelical Christian, but I don’t know anybody here. I came to St Paul to study.” “We know you’re here to study but we don’t have room.” “I don’t have anywhere to stay. So I have to stay here”. So they put me up in one room. The gentlemen in charge of the dormitory, I told him I have to stay for some time. In fact I have to stay at least 3 months; I just mentioned it like that. He said just 3 months. I said alright. On Sunday, I had nothing to do, so I asked someone to take me to Bethel Church, so they took me to the church and I came back to St Paul. On Monday I went to the registrar, he said: “Brother Afolabi you arrived late but go and see your professor and see if  they will register you”. And I went back to the registrar again, he said go to the accounts office and pay your fees.

What a shock?

I said: “But didn’t you give me a scholarship? He said: “No we didn’t’ give you a scholarship. We can’t afford to give you a scholarship. The fee is $15000; we can’t give you a scholarship.”  I didn’t have any money; when I came here I had eleven pounds sterling only left in my pocket.

Not even enough to feed your self?

Not enough to feed myself! Not enough for a month. I didn’t know I was to pay. “Didn’t you get a demand note for your fees? On a yellow paper?”  I said: “Isn’t that a scholarship? So if I made a mistake, what about your embassy in Lagos; they also made a mistake.” He couldn’t answer. He did not know how such a thing could happen.  So I said: “Now you have to give me a scholarship, because I am not going back.” He said : “OK go to your classroom”. The man was very gentle.  I still had to go to the accounts office and write something and fill a form for the accountant of the university and he was not kind. He said: “I don’t see how you can stay here even though you filled the form”.

He was doing his job.

Yes he was doing his job. It took about two weeks later, they called me and you’re wanted in the accounts office. When I went to the accounts office, they said go and see the registrar and when I went to the registrar, he said go to a room, he pointed to the number of the room, go and sign some documents.  I said: “I know. Today I am going back home.”

You thought they were going to deport you?

I thought that is all, give me the scholarship or I’ll go back. But what made the thing worse was that I got to that office, there was an RCMP officer standing by the door.

That scared you?

(Laughs). Yes, he was in uniform and I walked past him; then the lady said: “ OK  Mr. Afolabi, come and sign these forms” .  And I said: Are you deporting me now?”  And the lady said: “Deport? You have a scholarship!”  I said: “But what is the RCMP man doing there?” She said: “He is here to register; he is a student too!”  So that’s how I found myself in 1990 as a pastor. It was in Canada that I became a pastor.

So were you ordained at St Paul’s?

No I was ordained with the Church of God.

So you finished your training at St. Paul’s?

I would not say I finished. I concluded because I wanted to do much more than evangelism course, but I could not continue with it because there was no money. So I concluded a portion of the course and I abandoned it. The Church of God in Ottawa and Bishop Lake decided to sponsor me as a minister, and to sponsor me and my family also.

The one on Carling Avenue?

Yes. It was here that I became a pastor. I was ordained at the Church of God in 1993.

And then after that, how did you get to Christ’s Chapel Bible Church?

In 1994, Bishop Lake was transferred to Toronto to become the national coordinator of the Church of God in Canada and he left the Ottawa which meant I had to leave too. Because he had allowed me to be part of his team. Somebody else was coming in with a different team. So I was given a place to start a job in Aylmer, Quebec, and I went there for 18 months.

This was another branch of the Church of God?

Yes and I was the pastor there for 18 months. After that I got an inspiration from God that if I really want to serve, it would not be in that area.  Because that’s a dead zone for evangelism. So I had to go the east of Ottawa in Orleans. And I rented a place and started Christ’s Chapel Bible Church on the 15th of June 1996. We were in the  east for about 7 years before we came here in 2005.

So this church is a branch of the Ottawa Church of God?

No, it’s an affiliate of the Church of God.

What’s the difference?

An affiliate means that we are affiliated with the Church of God; we’re not really a branch, which means I cannot be moved from here.

So you are not reporting to a parent church?

I report to them as a parent.

But this is your permanent location?

Affiliation means we are in Canada, we want to affiliate with a bigger body that has greater influence in the community. We still participate in a lot of their activities. As a matter of fact, next week there is going to be a conference of pastors which I am going to attend as one of the participants. This conference is run by the Church of God. If it was a branch of the church, I could be moved from here. I don’t want to go to another branch. It was in Canada that I became a pastor and becoming a pastor, I discovered that my call is not really a pastor as such but as a teacher. Pastor is inclusive, included in my call.

What’s the difference?

The difference is that a teacher teaches pastors. If I am a teacher, I teach those who are coming to be ministers, that’s what we are doing. That’s why I do go to Africa, France and England every year to teach pastors.

In bible schools or theological schools?

No, in church bodies. For instance in Morogoro in Tanzania, we’ve been going there for about 4 years, my wife and I go there every year, we meet about 800 pastors.  We teach them about pastoring.

So you have a curriculum that you follow?

Yes we have a curriculum designed by me, and also in Uganda, so when they have their church conferences, I go there to minister to those pastors. The conferences are for pastors and minsters of the church. They may have several branches in their country, they bring them together at the end of the year to have a kind of refresher, a course formula , that’s what I do.

How do you get your funding for all these things, and for this church, for your evangelical work in all these countries?

Uganda, Tanzania, Rwanda, Gabon, France.  That is where the work of God is different from any other work . If God is behind any other work, he will supply the funds. He will provide for your needs. Every year for the past 7 years, I have been travelling, I’ve never paid for my own ticket and for my wife. I never take the money from the church here. Somebody donates the money for that work.

Do you request for donations?

As a matter of fact, the first donation I got I did not request for it.  It was one person who came here, and came to see me and asked to be baptized. And I baptized him and I knew his family and he gave me some money and he said: “Do you go abroad at all? Because the Lord has asked me to help you”. And it was a young man I didn’t know that he could help me. I said yes, I do go abroad. For the first time at that time for about 7 years, I have been invited to go abroad but I don’t know where to get the money. If you see this church, you will think we are well off. We are well off but the expenditure here is greater. The income we have is not as much we shall have a lot left over for me to travel. So he said: “I am going to send you something. Let me know how much it will cost you and your wife to go.” When I told him, he sent me one and half times the amount!. And he has been doing that every year. When we go abroad, we don’t take money from the church, because the ticket is already bought, usually 2 months before the departure.

What about hotel and other expenses?

When we get there the churches over there give us accommodation, they host us. We travel by ourselves. Hosting is very cheap, travelling is very expensive going; return to Africa for one person could be more that 4 or 5 thousand dollars.

So what other countries have you been to?

Rwanda, Uganda, Kenya, Belgium, Holland, and we do this every year. We go to at least one country a year. Last year we were in Tanzania and Uganda, and then we were in Turkey

Turkey, a Moslem country?

Yes, they have churches there.

What about Nigeria your home country?

I’ve never been invited to go to Nigeria

Interesting eh?

I’ve never even thought of going back to Nigeria. When the Lord sent me out of Nigeria, he sent me as he did for Abraham, don’t look back, God has so many workers over there, where there are not many workers, that’s where God is sending me to. If you see the kind of things I do in Congo, I’ve been to Congo than any other country.

But Congo and Rwanda are French speaking, do you speak French?

(Laughs).They interpret for me all the time. I don’t speak French

So tell me what you do in Ottawa, I know that at one time you were the chair of the pastoral group.

Up to now I am still the coordinator of the the International Pastors and Leadership Forum.  IPLF brings together mostly immigrant pastors to share their experiences, to bind together, for the sake of their congregations, so they may receive all the knowledge and appreciation of their work here in Canada, so they may be able to help each other, to lift each other up also to make sure they do not contravene the laws of the country. And also that we do follow up some of the objectives of the ministries here in Canada because Canada is a very free country but Christianity is on the slow side in Canada right now, slowing down so people who come from abroad as ministers will discover that they minister to their own people a lot much more than to Canadians. As such, so the difficulties in there we are ministering only to your own people and you don’t minister to local Canadians, you may find it offensive to minister to them in the language in which you minister to your own people. When you come here your language should be different, the approach has to be different. To them the evangelism is quite different in Canada. Especially the approach to evangelism and the permissions and several things that Canada permits in society here you don’t find them where we come from.

Such as homosexuality?

Yes, that’s right, such as lifestyles. We are all in the same world, we can live together without offending each other, and that is part of the gospel. We can live together without making sure that we step on each others toes. We do not stop to preach the gospel, we have to preach the gospel to tell the truth, that what is bad is bad. The bible says that evil is evil, if you want to practice whatever you want to, go ahead and practice it, it is between you and your maker if you believe in a maker, you believe in God, go ahead and whatever you will. So we make sure we do not fully defy the operating system here, the laws of the country.

So what type of things would you do in the pastors group?

We do conferences, we meet 4 times a year, every quarter and I am the coordinator. My role is to bring all of them together, to coordinate events of the meeting and the communication between us. We don’t have a permanent office, not as yet, hopefully we’ll have that in the future.  To make sure information is  passed through every member.

Let me shift the attention to what is going on with the black community in Ottawa. Your church is primarily black.  What do you see as the biggest challenge for the black community? I can think of some, unemployment, crime, school drop outs etc. What do you see as the most important problem we are facing as a community and how do we address it?

Our resolution of problems lies in our being obedient to the laws of the land; if we do this we shall be able to resolve some of the problems that confront us . If we do not contravene any of the laws, that is what we tell the ministers here. If there is a law here, that law is binding. Also we help each other those with immigration problems, not all immigration problems can be solved, personal problems, one on one, registration problems, how to register a church here, also registration of premises. Our present premises was zoned, when we bought it was not zoned to be a church , we spent about $20,000 to change the zoning to be a church. There are so many who have churches which are not zoned to be churches. The council can come any day and shut them down. So we advise them and ensure that the pastors and ministers do not allow that to happen. And also we teach each other to be able to help each other, concerning immigrants here who come to Canada without any help. There are many immigrants who want help, we refer them to social authorities because a lot of their burdens we cannot carry.

So what do you see as the biggest problem issue for the black community?  Does any of them appear bigger from your perspective or are they all at the same level?

Everyone of those problems are topical problems, important to be settled. Recently we had the Diversity Officer with Ottawa Police, to talk to us about youth and crime. These are some of the ways we try to help ourselves in this community to make sure we keep everything under legal premises, so we do not contravene the laws of the land. We use the facilities that the police have provided to encourage our youths to  obey the law, because we discovered that black youth especially, constitute a large percentage of those incarcerated.  There is no need for that to happen. There is a need for them to use the opportunities here such as education. The opportunities offered by Canada are tremendous, anyone who wants to be educated can do so and the sky is the limit. We encourage our youth , we tell the pastors to tell the youth to spend at least 5 even 10 years getting an education. When they get a good education, they can be well stationed in life, well planted in this country. They go for a quick fix, to find money, on drugs, prostitution, pimping, no need for that. I don’t know how far our efforts have encouraged them but I am sure without really knowing it that we’ve helped a lot, in reducing the number of those who may have gone astray. Things that would land them in the hands of the law. I suppose that what we’ve been teaching the International Pastors and Leadership forum has helped us to reduce the incidence of arrests of young people. And incarceration of young people.

So you think you are reaching the young people through this medium?

Yes through the ministers or through their parents. Since many of them don’t go to church.

It seems to be that each time you go to a church, most of the congregation are the older people. How do you make that jump from their parents to the youth?

You see its’ a climate we are living in, Christianity in the western world has been gradually on the decline. The second world war did a lot of damage to the faith. People may not realize it, the amount of wickedness and the killings and the murders that happened in that war has reduced the faith to a mere shadow of its former self. And so it has affected the fabric of society; faith is no longer counted as something to be embraced. But faith has not died, its’ on life support. To make sure the youth are finding other avenues to make their lives meaningful, such as education, apprenticeship; in the building industry a lot of workers are needed as builders.

So you bring professionals to the church?

We bring professionals to the pastors’ forum to get the message across. The building industry requires a lot of apprentices, electrical industry, if you want to have a renovation in your house, you know renovations are very expensive. There are people who are trained to do that. They all need apprentices. You need to be with them for maybe 3, 4 or 5 years.  And then you qualify.

So your ministry goes beyond preaching the word of God, you are also trying to improve the quality of the lives of your members?

We do, especially the quality of life of the quality of the future. i.e. the children. You don’t want to come as immigrants and to be on welfare, it’s one thing we keep speaking , do not remain on welfare, where you come  from, who gives you welfare and you survived over there. Why should you come here and depend on welfare. I don’t know of anyone in this church who is on welfare. We speak about it every time. Do not let the government cater for your breakfast, lunch or dinner.

Let me shift the topic to Nigeria and Nigerians in Canada. As a fellow Nigerian, we all worry about the kind of image we have, what do you think is the root of this problem and how do we change that perception?

When I was in Zambia, in the 70s, we were discussing the same issue, the technocrats there were mostly Nigerians, engineers, doctors, scientists and more. We usually meet from house to house every weekend, discussing the same thing, how do you help Nigeria. When you mature, you don’t rush, forced revolution, only if you are not mature, you say you want to change things, things change naturally, evolution. If you see European history, it took them hundreds of years to be where they are today. Evolutionarily, there was an age they call the dark ages, there was Christianity, there was paganism, witchcraft bring practiced side by side even by the churches. And there were changes, so where we have Nigeria now at 55 years of independence, we want to be at a place where Britain is now. It’s not possible. There is only one country I know, South Korea started with us, and they are today competitive with any other developed country in terms of industrial development, wealth, social cohesion, building of that nation, technological development, They have one language, they also had an experience of war which we also had. But our experience of war in Nigeria, thank God for the way the war ended, I was there when the war started, where South Korea is today, industrial development in Korea was due to the effort to make sure that they are not overwhelmed by the North Korea,  So they taught their children to be defensive, so they defend themselves through education, through achievements, through many things . We rather in Nigeria are offensive, for personal gain. There is a scramble for wealth, each one wants to get his own share. But that is not true when you want to develop a nation. You must make sure you get something for the community. When you do that it is possible for the goodness to flow to the whole community. There will be peace. But what is happening, there will not be peace. How would you like to have a millionaire who cannot walk in the streets?  Because he is afraid to be shot. He has to defend himself with a hundred men. So we have to grow by evolution. We have to come from depending on the government to depending on ourselves, start development from the rudiments, from the bottom of the ladder. A country being built  by building houses, without roads, electricity, Nigerian is growing houses, if you fly over Lagos, you see a lot of uncompleted houses, that is not the way to go.

Right here in Canada, how do we make sure the good things we do as Nigerians get known, rather than all the bad things?

Every nation requires a leader, we don’t have a figure you can look forward to  We used to have some and they were pillars in our society. Since those pillars were destroyed, we don’t have anyone else. If you look at Nigeria in 1960, we had stalwarts, people when they stand, they stand for a purpose to develop: Kwame Nkrumah, Nyerere, Kaunda, Mandela, Azikiwe, Awolowo, Ahmadu Bello, there was no competition among them. They were pillars but we did not know it, until we broke them down. Now there are no more pillars. They had no time to transfer the pillar influence to other people who also become pillars. Since the 70’s we never had a leader or builder, all we have are managers who are managing the decomposing life of the nation. If you have a builder he will not look at himself, he will not look at money, money is not everything, although the bible says money solves a lot of problems, but it’s not everything. It’s worth more than money. There is no way we can solve the problems except top wait and to pray, that’s what I believe. To wait for someone else to come like Mao Tse Tung, because where we are now China was there, where everyone was there for themselves. In fact, they had a lot of war lords, until there was one war lord who finished the others and declared China to be a republic. And till today even though they have a few languages among themselves, they speak one language, the language of development, the communists are cohesive, Nigerian needs something like that. Without the leadership, there is no way you can develop.

In Ottawa we have many black organisations, many national associations, how do you see the relationship between all these various groups, to see we are all working together?

We can be cooperative; if we are not then being a community does not help us. Not to regard the differences between us as such a terrible thing. For instance, I don’t see why Christians and Moslems from different parts of the world cannot relate together. Why Somali, Nigerians cannot relate together. Caribbean people and even Canadian people relate together. If we have a leadership that focuses on our common humanity, you can be contributing by expressing the views of the community to the public. I can be contributing by managing the culture of stability that comes through religion. Religion makes you stable.

So you see the religious groups as the glue that brings the community together.

Yes it is. If there was no religion, there will be no unity. There will be no development. There will be growth but no development.

So in that case do you see the pastors’ group providing leadership, to bring the black community together?

In a very small measure, even the larger measure. The larger measure being able to work with Canadians, people from other cultures, Italian, Irish etc.

Instead of isolating ourselves?

Yes because we are in Canada, I have a Canadian passport, I am a Canadian citizen. Why is it that I cannot relate with white Canadians of Irish heritage? We can go to parties and then disperse. If someone can bring something together, bring all these groups together, to perform something or that will be very good. I t will help us to realize that we have a common heritage apart from the different heritage, the heritage of our humanity.

Finally would you have a message for the readers of Black Ottawa Scene?

I will encourage your readers to please read twice every article that is published in the magazine, because this is a new field  of activity which will help also to encourage unity in the diversity in which we live in Canada, Without this unity, each of us will grow as an island, we shall not have the strength we need to have to be able to have a better future for our children. So I encourage all the readers to read this magazine and make some contributions also and give some advice. God has not permitted everyone to have all the wisdom, that is why he gives wisdom to everyone else, in a small measure, If you bring the wisdom together, then e can have a bigger wisdom, to make our lives to be worthwhile. Black Ottawa Scene must be appreciated because it will penetrate beyond the doors and individual and go to the community.